Wednesday, March 3, 2010

I consider myself Liberal BUT !!!!

Some may be very offended by this post BE WARNED
I like to consider myself a liberal , but sometimes I wonder if I am really at heart,

After reading Mrs Mom's Post Dealing With Thugs, and watching our daily local news of gang shootings, drug dealing and Robbery and Murders it makes me think maybe I am much more right wing than I think I am,

Let me talk first about what being a parent is and should be,

Loving, Nurturing, Life Teaching, Providing For and teaching your children between right and wrong ( The last is fundamental to children turning into valued members of society ).

Now I consider many of the problems we see on the streets are due to 3 causes

1. Poor Education ( why are inner city schools 30 + kids per class and and the burbs less than 25 per class ) something seems cockeyed.

2. Easy Route To Money ( Just bloody Lazy ) sometimes makes me think conscription might be a good thing to build the work ethic in

3. Not learning from parents The difference between right and wrong and not being disciplined by parents.

This is my solution ( Please try not to be offended )

If parents do not exercise their responsibilities to parent make them responsible for their children's crimes

I.E.
1. Fine parents if children under 16 habitually commit crimes , if they can not pay fines PUT THEM IN JAIL ( Crime of having children and not being parents ).

2. Take away all forms of government assistance

Hopefully the threat itself might make parents more responsible and very few would be forced to suffer the consequences if not then they will get what they deserve.

Woops suppose this could be considered extreme right wing and I apologize to those who I may have offended

Steve

28 comments:

Katharine Swan said...

Steve, I consider myself liberal too -- VERY liberal -- but I agree with you... to a point. I'm not sure I would be quite so harsh on the parents -- as a developmental psych student I can tell you that parents account for very little influence on a kid once they start going to school -- however I DO think that many parents don't use what influence they have very well.

Your approach is aggressive, but it might work with some families. However, it is really only designed to work on a certain socio-economic class. What are you going to do about the repeat offenders who are from rich families? Because they DO exist.

I hate to say it, but sometimes I think I'm actually a fan of taking kids away from their parents if their parents clearly aren't doing (or aren't able to do) their job. But we'd have to have a better system in place for rehabilitating kids.

Jennifer said...

WooT WooT! I heart You! I like solution #2. Strip 'em of the free moola, make them work for it..

If you throw the parents in jail, where do the kids go? In the system of fabulous foster care? How does that make little JonnyJuvenile any better?

Callie said...

The children are cooked by the time they reach school, "normal" childhood development is that by the time they reach school, they should know the difference between right and wrong and they should have guilt feelings when doing something wrong
http://www.childdevelopmentinfo.com/development/normaldevelopment.shtml
That is normal. Basic childhood development 101

The People History said...

Katherine , I realize most of the problems are related to certain socio-economic group , but if parents are rich hit them harder fine equals 15% of yearly income , as far as I am concerned with children comes responsibility rich or poor .

I agree many rich kids are little shits as well maybe if they can not get the new Merc because they have a hefty fine they will take more interest in their children's upbringing

Katharine Swan said...

Callie, yes, that's normal development -- but I don't think that's to say that they can't learn it later in life. It would just be better for them to learn it early on, and have it be instilled as one of the most basic values, while their parents have the most influence over them.

Callie said...

If they can be rehabed, fair enough, however it's generally done at our tax payers money, fine, IF it works, but I wonder does it really work. Our prison systems are not designed to rehab. They're there to house prisoners. Most of them let out have just become better criminals. Once a sociopath, always a sociopath. NOT fixable. So why not start before they get to that point and raise your children with a sense of responsibility for one's actions. Does anyone really think that the "skinhead" punk that brandished a weapon, a gun to Mrs.Mom and her small children while she was on her way to work is really going to get rehabed? Really? We really think that? Nah, Not me......

Mrs Mom said...

Callie the only "rehab" that little shaved head bastard is going to get or understand is someone making him a greasy spot on the pavement. I'd say make a hood ornament of him, but I don't really want his ugly ass decorating my truck.

If you can not PARENT when the child is YOUNG, then don't have kids.

But wait-- that takes away the Cash Cow for the "parents" though.. awwww.. poor things would have to do something like, oh I don't know.. GET A DAMN JOB and actually earn their money standing up like the rest of us do, instead of on their backs incubating the next generation of juvies.

I love love love this country with all my heart. But you know what? I am mighty sick and tired of the "It's everyone ELSE'S fault" shirking of responsibility that has become so commonplace in today's mentality. Makes me sick.

If parents don't have much influence on their kids when they start going to school, then MAYBE there needs to be a change in their parenting style BEFORE the kids GET to school. MAYBE they need to BE PARENTS instead of "best friends" "pals" and "buddies" to the kids, and start instilling some morals, ethics, and sense of responsibility for their actions or inactions. But that might be too hard, and take too much effort too.

Aw dang. Hate it for 'em. But I for one am damn sick of MY tax money paying their way.

And ya know what? These were NOT "Black inner city kids". These were WHITE kids. In a small town. In their early 20's. I dont worry about "black inner city kids" at all. I worry about idiots like these. White kids. From small towns. Who have no job, no ambition, and no guidance to make something of themselves. Because it is too easy to let "someone else" shoulder the responsibility.

Callie said...

You're right, Mrs.Mom, A greasy spot would suit just fine. I too am sick of it. Tired of the "wah,wah, blah,blah, someone else do it for me because it's just that much easier" Take some damned responsibility, raise your children with some morals and work ethic, Rich or Poor, that is the easy part. It's called teaching, spending time with them, take 5 minutes to read a damned book to them, interact, play with them, not shirking the responsibility to the schools or elsewhere. Maybe they'll grow up to be productive human beings instead of thugs!

Katharine Swan said...

Callie, Steve, Mrs. Mom, etc. --

First of all, I just want to say that I completely agree that parents need to take responsibility for raising their kids. I see so many examples of parents neglecting to teach their kids right and wrong, empathy, or hell even how to count, that sometimes it makes me want to scream. So if it seems like I'm disagreeing with you there, I'm not. My questions and comments have to do with HOW to enforce such a requirement EFFECTIVELY.

You have to think, if paying the ultimate price (i.e., the death penalty) doesn't effectively reduce crime (it doesn't), is a fine really going to do any good, either?

That being said, though, I think 15 percent of annual income would be too steep for the really poor families. Rich families, sure, but poor families? Can you really justify depriving a family of food, shelter, etc.? Whether or not they are responsible parents, that is NOT going to fix anything -- just make hungry kids who have more incentive to steal, deal drugs, etc. (in order to eat). So I think the fine would have to be more manageable for the lower classes.

But here's the thing. How are you going to be sure it's the parents' fault? It's not always -- with some kids, you can preach good morals until you're blue in the face and they are still going to do what their friends are doing. Callie's use of the word "sociopath" is another example -- parents shouldn't be punished if their kid has mental problems. Therefore an investigation would be needed to determine whether or not the parents have truly been neglecting their responsibilities.

I do agree with you that parents should be held accountable for raising their kids to be healthy and functioning members of society. However, the entire question is of HOW you go about making sure that they do. I personally think it would be more effective to get them at the starting line, rather than punishing them for mistakes already made -- I've often thought that people ought to be required to take parenting classes before they can have kids. Many people would consider this harsh, but considering how often neglect stems from ignorance, it also makes sense. If you need a license to drive... Well, suffice it to say that I think raising a kid wrong can be much more dangerous and devastating to somebody's life than hitting them with your car.

Callie said...

Katherine, Well thought out. It is hard to argue that and to find a real solution, I doubt that there is one. But the problem is the current problems with youth crime is actually getting worse. Perhaps the parenting class is a good idea.

The People History said...

Katherine ,

Thank you so much for taking the time to make a well thought out comment, many of the points you make are absolutely spot on and I have to agree on most.

I think my problem is that the current status quo is not working and things are getting worse ( I also believe the current recession will speed up the process of getting worse ) , which leaves us with the big questions society needs to ask its self how do we stop the rot and help future generations with

1. Getting out of the poverty trap
2. Improve parenting skills in all levels of socio-economic groups ( different problems with different groups but often the same net result.
3. Help the next generation to be useful members of society

I agree mine seem quite drastic partly because of frustration with seeing overall values decline respect for elders, respect for authority, respect for themselves.

It is hard for me to even contemplate such draconian measures because part of my upbringing stated very firmly ( Have compassion for those less fortunate than yourself )

PS I like the idea of parenting classes, and I would not do 15% of all only those higher income families.

I must be honest I do not have the answers but hope society can get to grips with how to go forward.

Steve

Jean said...

Having taught for 38 years myself, I've seen it all.

Kids need boundaries from the time they are tots until they are out in the world on their own. I've sat in far too many parent/teacher conferences where it's clear no one has ever set any for the kid.

I'm a liberal liberal too, but a lot of what you say makes sense.

Pony Girl said...

Don't get me started.....work ethic is a big one! So many kids don't understand what it means to work towards something, or work, in general. They are so spoiled! Most parents just break down and buy their kids a new IPOD if they lose theirs. I worked all through college (and still have huge student loans.) Children need structure, they crave it (discipline too.) Too many parents want to be buddy-buddy with their kids, and not parent them. Children will respect you more if you set boundaries. It doesn't mean you don't love them or not have a bond.

Breathe said...

Money does not define criminal behavior any more than politics. The thieves on Wall Street that continue to bankrupt this country because they have money and influence are just as morally corrupt as the thug on the street. We don't consider punishing their moms and dads. And yet those crimes have a huge impact on our lives.

We don't tax those people (comparitively speaking), we don't punish those people (bonus money is still flowing, thanks to tax payers), and we payout more in corporate welfare than we do in food stamps and rent.

That said, I believe strongly in instilling a work ethic, that no one should get a free check. Welfare should be earned, period. There are things that need doing, if you get food stamps or welfare, then you should help the community in some way.

Just this liberal's viewpoint.

The People History said...

Pony Girl,

Well said ,

Parenting is so diverse and difficult , many parents who have the money do believe that parenting is about buying the latest clothes, gadgets etc. rather than kids working for them. Kids crave one thing more than any ITEM that is quality time with parents.

Others just leave kids completely to themselves with no structure as if kids can learn and survive without parental support, love wondering why the kids go off the rails.

thanks
steve

Mrs Mom said...

First- you don't preach Morals. You live them and provide leadership by example IMO.

Secondly, what it all boils down to is instituting MORE government. Is that what you really want? MORE GOVERNMENT? So apparently we as a nation are too stupid to take care of ourselves? You really NEED the Government to step in and hold your hand and tell you what to do every step of your lives?

Yeah. I'll pass on THAT, thank you very much. But then again, I'm the token "right wing conservative bad guy who has her own small business so I must be rich and evil" too. I believe in LESS government... but with today's mindset can't really see that happening...

Fines: Are the parents living intelligently financially? Living at or below their means? Or are they making poor financial decisions, and living above their means, on credit etc?



Oh wait-- if the kids are in that much trouble that the parents need to be fined over it, then chances are everyone is making some pretty bad LIFE decisions.

John and Regina Zdravich said...

I usually piss people off when this sort of subject comes up, too. My solution is pretty radical. Any moron can have a child...we have to have licenses to drive, have permits for guns, etc., etc., but having children??? Have as many as you want, no matter who you are. I say, birth control in the water system. When you can prove you have a brain in your head and can raise a child, you get the antidote.

The People History said...

Mrs Mom,
I do not think truthfully this is a government issue although it might require government to provide guidance, it is really only society in general that can come to grips with these issues.

Society all sections need to understand what having a child entails,
I originally made the post focussed on crime because I see that as a big issue because as we see the summer approaching and with large numbers of unemployed ( My Opinion ) we will see an increase this summer of crime and rioting if previous history is anything to go by. but the problem is much more than that it is about our modern society and having children.

OMG
John and Regina
Go for the jugular of the problem why dont you.
Can not agree with you but do understand why you might believe that is better solution than what is happening today cos it does seem to me sometimes pretty dumb to have xx kids when they can not support themselves

Callie said...

Breathe, NO body here has said that money defines criminal bahavior, no one. Or politics for that matter. In fact, that's a whole 'nother post, LOL . Don't get me started on Wall Street. And BTW, We should.


Well? Here's the thing.........We either want some help & solutions for this shit or we don't. The fact of the matter is that we really have NO control over any of it. The best that any of us can do, is raise own children to be productive citizens and not statistics. And hope and pray that we don't have a run-in with a thug of that caliber or that when we do and we shoot it and go to jail ourselves for murder it's not for too long.


I just think that if we are made by the government to be responsible for car insurance, driver's liscense, etc. etc. , than why not children. Afterall, they are more important than the material shit, are they not? Are they not our greatest assets? Are they not our future? Perhaps they should be better protected, even from idiots who produce them and let 'em out to become thugs without raising them.

Katharine Swan said...

Well said, Callie!

Steve, I do believe that it is in part a government problem. Not that government caused the problem -- though they certainly could have prevented it -- but that it needs to be part of the solution. Society typically doesn't just change -- at least not for the better -- unless government steps in and makes it happen. It's like we were talking earlier -- how do you enforce something like parental responsibility? Unless we're talking about lynching bad parents, it's government's role that we're talking about here.

Jennifer said...

I had to get in on the action . . .

Check my blog & comment! Don't be shy...

The People History said...

After popping out to Jennifers Blog http://hunterintraining.blogspot.com/

on the discussion of what is rich, I thought about what she said and came up with this idea

How bout this for a different idea all parents must take out some form of insurance when they have a child for damage / crimes their children commit , so those parents who do not have a history of little thugs roaming the streets would pay low premiums '

Might seem fairer all round because some kids are harder than others boys tend to be worse than girls and parents that have had thugs already would pay a heavy price if they wanted to bring more little thugs into the world

Steve

Katharine Swan said...

I LOVE that idea! LOL

And taking parenting classes would reduce the premiums -- kind of like how in high school you can get lower car insurance rates for having taken driver's ed or for getting good grades in school.

The People History said...

Katherine
Callie and I were talking about it , most of us who are responsible parents have a long think about where we want to live especially with regards to children , trying to pick safe environments, good school districts etc. and the way I also look at it most stats tell us to bring 1 child up costs from $100,000 to much more so maybe expecting some commitment of insurance might just make the prospective mother think twice about it, it is easy to dismiss the long term costs and say whatever maybe not so easy to dismiss instant cost of insurance the day they go home.

And Parenting classes should not be a quick half hour session and get your certificate, it should involve the whole thing maybe including some child phyc and behavioral issues.


The big problem is how do you punish those who will still ignore everything we have talked about without going down the route of a communist of fascist state, if we could answer that or even have some ideas might be a good idea for a think tank with much cleverer people than me to think about.

Steve

Katharine Swan said...

Steve, I agree about parenting classes needing to be fairly comprehensive. But hey, you've got 9 months of pregnancy -- usually at least 6 or 7 months once they find out -- so that should give you plenty of time, right? :o)

I would say that some of the most important topics that need to be covered are discipline versus abuse, how to set age-appropriate expectations and rules, how to interact with your child and teach them important concepts at home (it's not ALL the school's responsibility!!!), and of course an overview of child development.

The theme of the discussion does seem to be how to enforce and punish offenders, doesn't it? But I love the insurance idea -- I think if parents were to get fined if they didn't carry insurance, and if insurance rates were dependent on home studies combined with factors that influence your kid's likelihood of getting into trouble, perhaps more parents would be convinced to change their ways BEFORE major problems develop. That IS the goal, after all -- not punishing people, but getting people to change.

Carroll Farm said...

Oh, man - I so agree with you!

I was fun to read all the comments - being a teacher for the last 10 years, it is amazing the difference in the kids. parents who have no control and have never said no to their kids drive me crazy

The People History said...

Well said Katherine ,

So how do you get the countries movers and shakers to look at something like this and pull it apart or think of the things we have not touched on, I am sure they are much smarter than I am and would come up with other ideas , but You are absolutely right it is not about punishment or money it is about education and responsibility

Rising Rainbow said...

I'm all for parents being responsible for their parenting but as a parent who had a teenager out of control because someone else molested her, I'm glad there weren't laws around making me responsible for the damage someone else caused.

We did everything we could to get that girl on the right track. Nothing worked........and now she's grown up she's still a mess. Sometimes there just are not simple answer to why kids don't behave.